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 Post subject: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:11 pm 
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Last session my players came to the conclusion that it was probably a fairly bad idea to live exclusively off their stash of military rations and decided that hunting would be fairly good way make their rations last longer.
Most of it ended up being small game hunting with a suppressed .22 rifle in order not to draw attention to themselves, but now their stock of .22 ammo is dwindling.

They're very well armed with a mix of civilian and military weapons but not sure how useful everything is for hunting, and what kind of game they'd be suitable for. I have no experience in hunting and don't really know anyone who does either, so figured this would be a good place to ask. After all, I dnt know much more than what's hinted in the TW2013 rules about hunting.
Note, the players are currently in the middle of California and are planning to head for the rockies.

First of all, the most obvious choices for hunting weapons: A Dragunov, an M14 semi auto, a 30-06 bolt action rifle and an FN49 in 8mm Mauser. As far as I know these would be good for most types of larger game in the region. As they have an MAG MG (which would probably be a hoot to go hunting with!) as well, they have loads of ammo at least for the M14.

Then, the second stringers: A couple of M4's (a mix of military and semiauto civilian carbines) with a fair amount of ammo. Not sure what kind of game these would be useful for. I saw Will Smith bag a deer with an M4 in "I am Legend" but I have no idea how realistic that was. AFAIK the .223 was originally a small game round?

Next up, shotguns: The full sized 12 gauge pump action should probably be most useful, followed by the short-barrelled 12ga semiauto. Not sure if theres any use for a cut-down Saiga .410. Compounding the problem is that they have no birdshot. Only slugs and buck.

And then theres the emergency measures: Handguns and submachineguns.
I guess the 9mm SMG's (UMP-9's) could be useful for something, and I understand that fullsized .357 revolver could be a fair hunting gun as well.
As for the autoloaders (a mix of 9mm, .40 and .45) I have no idea, and I'm really not expecting much from the .32 Skorpion.

And as mentioned earlier, they have suppressed .22 as well, but it's running seriously low on ammo.

How useful would night vision equipment be? The .30-06, the Dragunov and one of the M4's all have some kind of scope. Is this more or less essential nowadays or just merely helpful?

Oh, and as one of the players pointed out, they also have a grenade launcher for those instances when Bambi's mommy really needs to go down. :p
Sometimes they make me worry.

/Joel


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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:07 pm 
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I can help out some:

.223 would be for coyotes, fox, and smaller prey (such as woodchucks and prairie dogs).

.30-06 for deer, as well as the 12 gauge shotguns. IIRC, the slugs would require a rifled barrel, whereas the buckshot would require a standard smoothbore barrel. If anyone knows otherwise, I am willing to stand corrected.

Note: The above is also dependent on ammo. It depends mainly on the grain (weight) of the bullet and the design. Example: For a 7mm rifle, a 150 grain bullet can bring down antelope, muledeer, white-tail deer and black bear; for larger game, a 165 grain bullet (possibly even something specialized like boat tail ammo) can bring down larger game, such as elk, moose (I'd suggest that with a very good shot, unless you want an irate creature chasing you through the woods. remind me to tell you the tale told to me sometime), and brown bear.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:13 pm 
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If in doubt on the ammo, try checking in at any sporting goods/outdoors/gunstore (if available) or online. For the civilian weapons, look for Federal ammunition boxes (note: I don't work for them in any capacity; the only reason I mention brand will be made obvious); they sell their ammo with a silhouette of an animal by the bullet caliber on one side. The silhouette corresponds to chart on the bottom of the box for what sort of animals the ammo is intended for.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:40 am 
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.223/5.56 can be used for deer in a pinch, though it's definitely a marginal round for this; here are plenty of example of people doing it. Shot placement is very important for this. Military FMJ 5.56 will be a bitch to clean out of a deer, though, if it performs properly and fragments; a whole bunch of little chunks of lead scattered through a torn wound cavity. If used against prairie dog-sized prey, there won't be a whole lot left. This is the sort of damage you can expect from .223 on that size prey:
Image

You won't see a practical difference for the most part between the 7.62x51, 7.62x54R, 7.62x63 (.30-06) or 7.92x57mm rounds for hunting. I'd let logistics determine this one. In your region, scavenging 7.62x51 and .30-06 will be slightly easier than 7.92x57 with 7.62x54R bringing up the rear.

Also, slugs do not need a rifled barrel in a shotgun. Many are aerodynamically stabilized (and work just fine from an improved cylinder or looser choke. The typical North American shotgun slug is the Foster type, which looks kind of like a hollow point that gets shot backwards. The hollow lowers the density of the rear of the slug and stabilizes it in flight. The other major type is the Brenneke slug, which attaches, typically, a plastic wad to the rear of the slug which also stabilizes it. Both work much like a badminton shuttlecock.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:00 am 
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Oh right. Ammo.

Id say that most of their 7,62x51 and all of their 5,56 would be military ammo. In the case of 7,62 that'd be FMJ I think, since it's belted machinegun ammo (no tracers though). The 7,62R could pretty much be a mix of anything, while the .30-06 should be some kind of hunting ammunition.
And I do suspect that BUCKshot could be useful for deer. :p

What about handgun calibres? Could the be useful for any kind of hunting in an emergency?

/Joel


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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:46 am 
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Shotgun slug does not require a rifled barrel, but some upland game and bird guns should not be used with it as the increased barrel pressures of firing the round can blow the barrel up (an into the shooters arm and face).

Buckshot will work for small game and birds, but the shooter will probably need to pass a CUF test not to shoot the game too close to the barrel and make like the squirrel above or hit the small animal with too many shot. The short barrel may make it harder to hit, but also improve the chances of only a single hit instead of a mangler hit. When it is a bird, it's called a blown bird. Usually gutted from base of the tail feathers to lungs, with some breast meat still edible.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Handguns can be used in a pinch to hunt, mostly for smaller game and varmints. The long barreled high calibers could do deer, I have read (a while back) where a 44Mag handgun was licensed to hunt 'bigger game' but IDK what state or country allowed this. (Hey, I'm an old fart... Give me a break.)

9mms and such I would do groundhog if I had too, but for deer I want big calibers and long barrels.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:34 pm 
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Most states allowing handgun seasons for deer require at least a .357 Mag or greater. .357 is, frankly, a marginal round for deer. .44 Special or .45 Long Colt is considered a "baseline" round, with the obvious loads (.44 Magnum, .454 Casul, .50 S&W, etc.) as ideal for the taking of large game. These rounds, chambered in rifles, perform much more reliably, with, as an example, .45 Long Colt delivering consistent kills out to 150 yards. Of course, as with any weapon, accuracy counts more than energy.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:16 am 
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Not very experienced in hunting, but around here (Finland) they use .30-06 for moose, bear and to a lesser extend deer. .308Win (almost identical to 7.62N) is used also, but for moose the shot placement must be good. .223 Remington is used for game birds (black grouse, wood grouse, willow grouse, geese) and then there's of course the ubiquitous 12 Cal shotgun for small game (which is a pain to hit with a rifle, unless it is still as in grouse hunting with a dog).

The regulations about muzzle energy for each type of game are quite strict here so the calibers are bigger than is strictly needed. In survival situations, with good shot placement you can down almost any game with quite a miniscule calibers. But, then you really have to be a very good hunter and shooter. Just and expert shooter does not cut it, 'cause you can't get to the right place for a good shot if you do not know how to do it. A good hunting dog helps also and saves some swimming in case of waterfowl.

As noted above, in hunting the ammo used is critical. Generally in hunting they aim for rounds producing controlled mushrooming, so no tumbling or fragmentation. Bigger ball point ammo should be able to punch clean through smaller game so they don't explode. They do use ball point .308Win also for shooting bigger birds in a pinch here. Same ball point ammo through a moose or bear can mean either arduous tracking or interesting times, respectively. Shot placement also should be different as you'd better hope for CNS hit if you shoot a bear with ball point, heart/major arteries do not cut it. In time.

Buckshot works for lynx, some deer, wolves, but for smaller game you have to get smaller pellets a) to hit the critter b) to not spoil it if you do.

Or, so I've heard. As said, not much direct personal experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:28 am 
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Apparently, Christopher McCandless (of Into the Wild fame) managed to take down a moose with a semi-auto .22LR, and as far as I know (seen the movie, but haven't read the book) he wasn't a very experienced hunter.
Granted, we dont know how many moose he ended up not killing.


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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Probably tortured a couple by wounding them and then they got away. Not responsible hunting. Excusable in a survival situation, but not acceptable otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:24 pm 
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griffin911 wrote:
Probably tortured a couple by wounding them and then they got away. Not responsible hunting. Excusable in a survival situation, but not acceptable otherwise.


While there are certain aspects of McCandless life I find commendable and admirable, there of plenty of others I, well... don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:14 am 
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In my experience .223 cal. or 5.56mm will take down a deer with proper shot placement, like any other round. The game wardens around here all know that .22 LR probably kills more deer (illegally) than any other round in these parts (Georgia).
Any 7.62mm round up to .30-06 or 7.62X54R should be able to take on most big game (Whitetail deer sized and up) on the North American continent. Have heard of .30-06 used to take down elephant, but I believe it was handloaded with solids.
The heavy rounds like .338 Lapua and 300 Win Mag just sling heavier bullets (200 grains or better) flatter and further out.
I've hit rabbits and rattlesnakes with a .45 ACP, head shots mostly at around 10-15 feet (gotta love instinct shooting). So it's doable. Wouldn't hunt deer with anything less than .357 mag unless that's all we had.
If you need ballistic data, most handloading sites should have tables with the most popular and even some obscure cartridges.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Since your in California, dont forget to add radioactive hotspots to your hunting... makes a great twist tracking down that last buck and then discovering you can it eat because of too much radiation.

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 Post subject: Re: Goin' huntin' with what's available
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:04 pm 
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For deer, I wouldn't use anything smaller than a 7mm and for bigger/tougher game a .30 caliber unless I had to. From a pistol hunting big game, here in Iowa the minimum is .357, but most people use a .44 Magnum or similar, though I have a friend who swears by .41 Magnum. For small game like squirrel or rabbit and game birds, 7 1/2 shot works fine. For ducks and geese, use 4 shot, same for turkey. And on that note, turkey or duck shot also makes an excellent short range combat round.


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