It just occurred to me.
In a post-apocalyptic world where fuel was at a premium a Rickshaw would be the ultimate means of pulling your belongings. imho it could be easily manufactured. A mountain bike suspension would allow easy pulling in rough terrain and it would enable an individual who wasn't lucky enough to own a draft animal to carry a substantial load.
How would you stat such a vehicle in terms of carrying capacity?
Adi

Well, the "secret weapon" of the Japanese in Malasia/Singapore campaign was..... the bicycle.

Japanese troops travelled far more quickly and moved massive amounts of supplies using the conveyance. even flat tires (or tyres for our British friends) were no obstacle, as the troop simply rode on the rim. Cargo was slung across the frame and a trooper could either ride or push the bike, using a bamboo pole tied to the handlebars as a guide. Several hundred pounds of cargo could be carried on a single bike.

The NVA/Viet Cong resurected the practice for use on the Ho Chi Min Trail, where most cargo going into South Viet Nam went in on bike, after being driven into Cambodia by truck. Again, the bike was simple a two-wheel cargo vehicle, with the operator pushing from the side, using a bamboo stick to control it.

Up until the seventies or perhaps even early eighties Sweden had dedicated bicycle infantry units. There's still about a zillion bikes stockpiled and used for minor duties (getting around base and such). In the early nineties we made a deal with unified Germany to buy a load of used BMP-1's to mechanize our forces on the cheap.

I sometimes wonder if we were better off with the bikes.

While I'm not sure this qualifies as a rickshaw, the lowly handcart has a long and useful history. In the westward expansion of America, handcarts were the low-cost alternative to a wagon. One of my ancestors made a 1300-mile journey across the plains and the Rocky Mountains while pulling one. Like wagons and other 19th century vehicles, finding someone who can make a good one will likely be a little tough outside a re-enactment farm. Still, I see makeshift handcarts as being the standard mode of transport for refugees.

The Swiss Army make extensive use of bicycles too. They used to have their own make, though I do not know if they buy someone else's now or not.

There are bike carts manufactured by a couple of companies, namely Burly(sp?). They have nearly no suspension, but they can carry quite a bit.

They reinstated the bicycle units? I thought they disbanded the bicycle regiment about 10 years ago.

Of course, you don't really need to be a great craftsman to create a handcart when you have bicycle parts sitting around. I seem to recall pictures (that I can't find at the moment) of the VC using bicycle hand carts pretty effectively. But these examples will have to do for now:

My information is a bit out of date.

I believe all units underwent a training cycle on the bikes, and a single regiment was Infantry with no organic transport other than the mountain bike as transport. They Swiss don't historically make use of much transport relative to other militaries, given that the extent of offensive operations are general tactical and generally serve defensive strategic objectives. I always thought they relied too heavily on their excellent rail and vehicle net for deployment to the border zones, but once there, they do have some impressive defense networks, given their principle aim is to make themselves to costly an objective for anyone to mess with.

I once watched an anti-tank platoon riding up a mountain near where I lived. One guy with the anti-tank tube (Dragon? I think it was) strapped across his back struggling up the mountain while the guy behind trucked the tripod. Switzerland has no army, it is an army.

Britain and Germany both fielded bicycle infantry units in WWII, though to what degree ("fielded" on paper? just territorials?) I'm unsure. Would have to hit up the old Steel Panthers forums. No, not the hair band. Wiki says that all major nations were fielding bicycle infantry by the end of the 19th century. Boer War, WWI, WWII, Continuation War... and in modern times a surprisingly polite column of Tamil Tigers. OK, that's just a picture in the article, I laughed anyway. Fitzpatrick's "The Bicycle in Wartime" looks like a nice addition to the bookshelf... May have to annoy the missus and buy it. ("Read your other damn books first," she says. )

The finns got grat mobility from their basic infantry thansk to skis and bicycles. Beats walking and irritates to crap out your friendly stalinist invader.
In the netherlands, germans still get the derogatory nickname of "bicycle thieves". Apparently they've gotten over the fact the germans deported their jews, communists etc but the fact that they also stole bikes by the trainload is still a sore spot!

Personally, bicycle is my preferred vehicle for getting around, as long as I'm not leaving town.

The Rickshaw is an interesting idea to let a person carry far more than their strength would seem to allow. I could see it becoming popular for some areas. If there was no bicycle repairman around.

As for bicycles, they would indeed be popular, as would pedal trikes and improved four whealed vehicles powered by pedal. Such vehciles could carry or tow quite a bit. Hell, a pedal trike or quad could easily have a pintle mount as well. Imagine FAV style buggies powered by the driver and front passenger with a third man's the M60. Quite an effective and cheap patrol vehicle.


a modern adult sized pedal car.

http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/Products/Dino-go-carts/Dino-Train-ZF-GB.asp
A site that actually markets a pedakl car for adults.

I think you are talking about this highly classified model


Adi

I think you are talking about this highly classified model


Adi[/quote]

That isn't that scary now, but imagine a small town with a couple dozen of them as roving patrols...

Get in front of them and then they can't engage you. The guy riding the bike can't hold his weapon. Simple enough to defeat. If you really wanted to use a LMG for a roving patrol a dismounted machinegun team would be a lot more effective.

Even I could think of some simple solutions to fix that problem.

A: Mount a gun (or two) on the Handle Bars.

B : Improve rear cart so that MG operator is standing and can fire over cyclist head.


The point is a Pedal trike or Pedal Car would be a great patrol vehicle for a community.

Then you give up the mobility that you're looking for. Drivers typically do nothing else except drive. Despite Chuck Norris's motorcycles in Delta Force.



Then you have multiple issues. It's usually poor form to shoot over friendly heads not just for SDZ reasons but for the simple fact that you have a machinegun deafening your driver. You have a raised center of gravity causing greater instability and increasing the size of the variation in the beaten zone. The increased instability is also likely to cause that tiny trailer to overturn. I know you're already thinking widen the base/increase the size, but then the weight becomes more than a person can effectively move by pedals. And then, you're wearing out the guy on the pedals before you ever get to the fight.



That's your opinion. I disagree. By going on that methodology, you sacrifice Economy of Force, Surprise and Simplicity from the Principles of War. Bear in mind, the sizes of most communities won't be that great. And in real life, for 15 months, I controlled security and patrolled a town of about 9,000 people as an Infantry Platoon Leader. I would typically go out with 6-12 personnel with nothing heavier than a M249. Sometimes, not even that. We'd send out at least two patrols per day. They would always be on foot though. This allowed us to go and patrol from anywhere. Check out http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=en&i ... 27874&z=16. A little town called Hor al Bash.

If you are tied to a particular route or avenue of approach, the enemy will see that. He'll learn that you might be putting dismounts out through the yards and parks, but the machineguns roll through the streets on an unarmored bicycle trailer where they're not even that employable. A couple hand grenades over a courtyard wall, an AP mine, or, as one of our former SF-guys in my class likes to say, foogas would give that machinegun bicycle team a really bad day. That machinegun is a much more valuable target than a dismounted patrol.

So, without going into a doctrinal analysis of TTPs, in my professional opinion, I think a trailer towed LMG with bicycles makes a very poor patrol and security vehicle. As a commander, it reduces my flexibility way too much and it's too easily defeated to create enough of a deterrent effect to be beneficial to my mission.

A: Driving a vehicle is much different than riding a trike. The speeds are lower on a pedal trike and aiming the weapon left or right is relatively easy. Sure the drive normally does nothing but drive, but a SMG mounted gives them some options.

B: Ever hear of ear protection?

I am not advocating these devices as weapons of war, but rather peacekeeping. A settled community in 2013 has no need of stealth inside it's own borders. The pedal trike with weapons trailer is an economical way to distribute Squad support weaponry to handle light engagements. This save fuel for your armored vehicles to deal with heavier engagements.

Hell, even if there was just one trike per ten cycle mounted soldiers the trike would be the one bringing the squad weapons to support your infantry.

There is a difference between a three-wheeled trike and a two-wheeled bike, but from a guy who used to ride a motorcycle for a specific mission type in one of my old units, I disagree. We can continue to debate this for three years and neither one of us is going to change our minds.



Ever been in front of a M240 muzzle when it was firing? Not just in front, but within five feet, I should say. Short of being deaf to begin with, there isn't much you're going to accomplish with earplugs/muffs.



There is no difference in a security patrol and a peacekeeping patrol other than expected threat level. The fundamentals still apply.



I'm not talking about stealth, I'm talking about flexibility. This course of action reduces my flexibility to roads and light trails for my most casualty producing weapon (or in the case of peacekeeping and security my biggest deterrent to hostile action).



And I propose that a more economical, more tactically-sound way is just a regular, vanilla dismounted patrol. For a security perimeter/patrolling scenario, a machinegun is better suited for a static strongpoint with established fields of fire and a cleared zone that you can bring the benefits of the machinegun into play.

[/quote]Hell, even if there was just one trike per ten cycle mounted soldiers the trike would be the one bringing the squad weapons to support your infantry.[/quote]

If the trike is moving with dismounted Infantry, what benefit is it really providing you? We're talking about a ~25 pound LMG for most weapons systems, not a 120+ pound M2 system. Why do we need a trailer for that kind of system? In a vehicular mounted patrol, yeah, I understand mounting it on a truck of some kind, but a short range, low contact patrol? It's a waste of time and resources that could be better spent on something else. Like maybe using the trike and trailer as an ammo cart instead to rearm outposts maybe.

Like I said, we can debate this forever but you're set in your opinion, I'm set in my opinion. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

bicycle trailer, just what the doctor ordered for a post apocalyptic fuel deprived survivor.

Adi

You put your weeeeeeed in it, man!

And back to the discussion of the trailer based MG...

I agree with Eddie. The dismount MG has FAR more flexibility, range, and reliability than a ghetto-rigged G.I. Joe vehicle. The RAM, anyone?

No, but i used to work in several factories whose average decible level exceeded jet engine take off for eight hours a day. A simple set of earplugs and then the earmuff work wonders. Sure i would not want to be 5 feet form the barrel of a fully automatic weapon firing continously for eight hours, but hey not likely to happen either.



That may be true in a situation that you have unlimited resorces, but in a 2013 world you might have to make allowances.



Actually over any reasonable flat terrain, and allows you to go places that most vehicles cannot go. A pedal trike with Trailer is substantially narrower than most motor vehicles. Aslo of note if you have a decte bicycle repairman your trailer doe not have to be behind the trike. hell i am only a moderate skilled repairman and i can think of many ways to do so and many of them would have gunshields.




Again you are assuming a community has modern light machine guns. What if they have a Browning 1919 or an old MA Duece or and Actual working antique Gatling Gun. Hell my Town has four such weapons all replicas of course, but there is no way we could move them around on foot and these would be out ONLY squad support weapons. In a Post Apocalyptic world you have to think like you might not have what you want. hell you could have all the trucks you want, but becuase you have too little farm land have no way of making fuel.


I'll end it here though, provided you have modern light machine guns, SAWS or so on unmounted infantry or trucks is probably your best bet true. If you have Ma Dueces and vehciels of course use the vehicle. But if your otpions are thin you don't have to rely on just strategically prepared machine gun nests.

This thread is made of pure WIN.

I just love the bicycle-technical idea, however idiotic it might be. (Gunshields for bicycles. LOL.)
Have you thought about using flying carpets for close air support?
And guys, I also love way you try to sustain the belief it would work.

On the topic though, imho only use for rickshaw or bicycle that is feasible is traveling and moving stuff. (And I'm quite sure thats what they are made for in the first place.)

Give me a small break, I am referring to desperation levels here. Not exactly stuff you'd see in a well supllied town, but exactly the stuff you'd see in a settlement just barely hanging in there.

By the way Flying carpet no, Hot air ballon, hell yeah.

Wow...April 26 to August 29...four months?...

Let me decide if I stilll care enough about this debate to reply to you...

While bicycles might be a nice way to get a round quicker than on foot, it's ridiculous to make some kind of fighting vehicle out of one.

In small words the issue is basically this: A human on a bicycle, even moving at a fairly high speed, is a rather inviting target compared to a human who's hit the dirt or is taking cover. If you offset the fact that the bicyclist is basically a sitting duck in a firefight by encasing the bike in armor, it gets too heavy to pedal around with any speed, or possibly at all, considering terrain. Ergo, at best you get some kind of semi-mobile, poorly armored pillbox that at best will stop rifle bullets. And if the enemy has something bigger than that, expect it to be coming your way.
If you're lucky and clever, it's a waste of material. If you're not, it's a deathtrap.

But for simply moving from point A to point B in areas where noone is likely to shoot at you, bicycles should be worth their weight in gold (I'll give you an exact GG stat as soon as I've found a scale suitable for my bike :p).